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Okay, thank you. I need

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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me, George Galloway,

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and me, Gayatri.

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Will she won't she? Will she won't she

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join the dance? The turtle song in Alice

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in Wonderland provides a perfect

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introduction to the dilemma facing the

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sturgeon. Or is it the salmon? As

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Britain heads for the Brexit,

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Scotland's first minister Nicolas

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Sturgeon believes that the greater

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support for remaining in the EU in

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Scotland than in Wales and England

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provides a trigger for a new referendum

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on Scottish independence. Or does she?

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Former first minister Alex Salman seems

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a bit more enthusiastic about Indere too

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and some say is pushing his successor

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down a road which could either lead to

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the breakup of Britain or the breakup of

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the Scottish National Party or it could

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just be a hard cop soft cop routine.

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Either way, it is a high-risisk

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strategy. er rests upon the belief that

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the Scots will be so in love with the EU

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from Belgium to Bulgaria, Romania to

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Rome that they will sever their ties

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with their rather closer

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English-speaking neighbors and customers

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in England and Wales. Will she? Won't

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she? Let's ask the right honorable Brian

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Wilson, a former Labour cabinet

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minister, journalist, and broadcaster.

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Brian, thanks for coming back on the

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sputnick. Let's deal with the will she

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won't she. Uh, does she want to? Is

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Salmon pushing her? What's your take on

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that?

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Well, Salmon's certainly pushing her.

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There's no no doubt about that.

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I don't think anybody knows. I'm not

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sure she knows herself, but it's a it's

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a problem entirely of her own making, a

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dilemma of her own making because it's

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all based on this contrivance really

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that um Brexit was such a cataclysmic

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event and is, you know, in terms of what

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we already know about what the outcome

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is going to be that this dramatically

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changes everything and therefore there

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must be a another independence

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referendum. There's no logic in in in

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that position apart from anything else.

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You know, I mean, I'm a fairly obvious

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example. why I voted to remain in the

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EU. But the idea of being counted upon

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as as one of those whose vote justifies

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calling an independence referendum is

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patent nonsense. And also I mean there

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was a very sub although clearly more

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people in Scotland voted to remain than

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to leave there was a very substantial

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minority and and the polling shows about

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30% of SNP supporters voted to leave. So

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the idea that they are automatically so

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indignant about being out the EU that

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they want an independence referendum.

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they might want it for other reasons,

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but they certainly don't want it for

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that reason. So the whole thing it was

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it's been a very sort of labored

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contrivance to get into this position

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and important figures in the Scottish

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nationalist movement like Jim Siller's

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former colleague of ours who became a

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grande of Scottish nationalism. He's

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made it clear he'll not be voting for

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independence if it means going into the

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EU as an independent Scotland. So the

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crisscrossing of all these things must

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make it very problematic as to what the

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outcome of an India refu would be.

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I think it is very problematic and I I

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think you know Jim Sers is still a a big

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beast and he's a you know he's he's a

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powerful debater and and him putting

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that case will be a significant factor.

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But I think even before you get to what

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would happen in a referendum, I think

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really in exposing what they're up to,

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it's important to recognize, you know,

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the dishonesty really of the case

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they're putting forward. It is a

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contrivance. So there's no, you know,

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what would you be voting on in a

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referendum? You we clearly we don't know

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what the outcome of Brexit is going to

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be on a thousand different fronts, but

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equally we don't know what independence

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is is going to to look like and we don't

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know what the EU is going to look like.

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So to plunge a Scotland into another

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referendum four years after the one that

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was supposed to be the once in a

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generation referendum on the on the

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basis of a complete set of unknowns is

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you know that is not uh it's not a

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rational response and I also think that

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no matter who's in government in the UK

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be it Tory or Labor the fact is that the

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government of the United Kingdom is

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about to enter the most significant

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diplomat atic negotiations since the

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Second World War I with huge

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implications for jobs and living

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standards and everything else. The idea

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they should be they should be asked to

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do that while on the one hand to be

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conducting these negotiations while in

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the back door they're having to fight a

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secessionist referendum. And I just

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think that is unreasonable. It defies

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common sense. And I think on that point

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that the Scottish people almost across

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the board apart from the real zealots

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for for for nationalism would recognize

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that that is unreasonable which is why

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the polls are showing a 2 to1 majority

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against having another referendum. That

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wouldn't be the first time uh though I

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know you don't like to go there uh that

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that happened uh with a government in

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London entangled with uh uh rather

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important business uh visav Europe but a

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backdoor Scottish nationalist stab in

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the back uh effectively but that poses

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uh at least two alternative

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possibilities for the British state.

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either as I favor the British government

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itself saying after Brexit there will be

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a second Scottish referendum and uh

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incidentally we'll set the question uh

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or a British government determination

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declared now that once in a generation

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is not uh four years and there will be

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no Scottish second referendum. Which is

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your uh your favorite option of those

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two? Well, it's it's slightly in

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between. I mean, I I am absolutely clear

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that if Sturgeon forces the the question

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that the UK government should say, "No,

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you're not having a referendum just

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now." And it and and obviously there

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would have to be a facing down of the

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great squeals of indignation and, you

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know, grievance and this is an outrage

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and and all all the rest of it. But I

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think that the ground should be laid for

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why you're saying it. And it's not it's

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not the imperial power saying saying we

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will defy the will of the Scottish

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people. And so far as we know the will

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of the Scottish people is that there

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should not be another referendum. What

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it is saying is the argument I've just

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made. It is utterly unreasonable

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irrational to have these two pro two

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things going on at the one time Brexit

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negotiations and a Scottish referendum.

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As Jim Siller said actually you know

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that who knows these negotiations might

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go a lot better than anyone thinks. And

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on the other hand who knows what the EU

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is going to look like at at that time.

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So it might be a different set of of

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circumstances. I mean, what I've always

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said is if the people of Scotland want

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independence, they should have

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independence. I don't, you know, I don't

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I don't want it. I'll vote against it.

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I'll campaign against it. But if that is

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the view, then so be it. And if there is

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a dominant view in Scotland in in a few

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years time, there should be another

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referendum, then so be it. But what I'm

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not prepared to see, what I'll argue

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very strongly against now is being

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manipulated into a second referendum

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which neither has an intellectual basis

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nor has the support of the majority of

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the population.

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See, I wonder as you say, apart from the

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zealots, is the matter of um

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independence and and the EU really the

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biggest priority of the people of

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Scotland?

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We tend to be persuaded to think in

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terms of black and white. I mean, I I

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you know, I voted to stay in the EU, but

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I'm not with no illusions that it's some

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sort of perfect democratic entity. You

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know, I mean, I I mean, I do mean EU was

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set up to facilitate the free movement

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of capital, not the free movement of

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labor. And and you know, a lot of good

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things have been added onto it. Some of

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them been beneficial to Scotland. But if

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you spoke to fishermen for instance, you

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spoke to a lot of people who have lost

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their jobs because of the a the free

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movement of capital then maybe they

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wouldn't think it was such a great idea.

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So I think in many people's minds it's a

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balance. You know it's not an absolute

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you know but the biggest thing in their

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lives is to stay in the in the EU. I

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mean I think there's a much more complex

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view of that and so let's see how it

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rolls. Let's see how Brexit is going to

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to to develop and then maybe maybe form

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an opinion. But the idea that all

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Scotland is up in arms because the UK as

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a whole has voted to come out of a

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European Union is a is a fantasy.

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You'd think that though if you followed

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uh the media. I sometimes think it's

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only they and me uh that think the way

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we both think on this. The political

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class, the media class appears

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overwhelmingly

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uh wedded now, including some surprising

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uh converts to uh to the cause of of

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separatism. Uh is this because of the

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very substantial decline in the party we

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once both served, the Scottish Labor

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Party?

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I think I've said this before and you

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know I mean the biggest threat to a

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to the constitution the biggest threat

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of independence doesn't come from the

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SNP. It comes from the weakness of labor

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and the biggest threat over the next 10

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years say will be if the perception is

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there's not going to be another Labor

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government. And a lot of people who you

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know we would know and and respect would

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finally shrug our shoulders and say well

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maybe we have to look for for for

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something else. I mean I I have no doubt

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about that. And I think in the in the

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Labor party's internal affairs, it's

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something that there is an obligation to

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take account of, you know, but there's

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there are very very big stakes at here

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here and at state here and they're not

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just the the the obvious ones, but um

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you know, but but at the moment the

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position is in spite of that is that it

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it appears the majority because mainly

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because of the economic arguments.

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There's all there's a whole range of

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arguments about, you know, our ties with

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the rest of the UK. There's a very

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obvious argument that what madness is it

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that we we're going to come out of a

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union which is worth four more time four

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times more to us in exports than the one

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that we're supposed to be in. Exactly.

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you know, I mean, so it it there's all

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of these things and of course the the

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economic argument which again is

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confirmed just within the last couple of

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days by um the the S&P's own sort of

275
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,279
think tank on the economy that the the

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lies that were told the last time about

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00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:10,800
the you know the likely oil price the

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whole construction of an econom economic

279
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,480
argument in the white paper has now

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shown to have been entirely false. You

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00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,519
know, these are the reasons no matter

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how you vote, how people vote in

283
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Scotland, these arguments are are the

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ones, you know, that are are

285
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well, Scots are not called cann for

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nothing and facts or chills that want to

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ding uh and it takes money to buy mints

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and all that. Uh at the end of the day

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00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,920
uh if you can't persuade Scottish people

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that they will be at least as well off

291
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out of the United Kingdom than they are

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in it.

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But the possibility exists that they

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might be very considerably worse off. I

295
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,240
don't see how the SMP could win that

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referendum. It's one of the reasons why

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I want it to go ahead. Well, we could

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win it because we live in irrational

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political times. And if you can brush

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these argument aside, you you only need

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51% after all. You know, final

302
00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:10,160
rather than Exactly. So you you might

303
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have 49% of rational people listening to

304
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,399
the arguments and 51% were not really

305
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not interested in the arguments because

306
00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:19,040
this is what they've been convinced is

307
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is is the way to go. But, you know, I I

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00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:24,320
believe if there was a referendum just

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now that because the economic case is so

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00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,760
bad that that the vote would be to to

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00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,279
remain within the United Kingdom. But

312
00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,360
what I don't want, George, I mean, you

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know, we're all pushing on a bit and for

314
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:38,959
another 18 months of our lives to be

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devoted to this nonsense, you know,

316
00:12:38,959 --> 00:12:43,040
while on every measurement Scottish

317
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education is declining, the Scottish

318
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,680
economy

319
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:49,839
really is has nowhere to go. 20% of jobs

320
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:52,639
in the financial se services sector have

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gone since since 2014. I mean the list

322
00:12:52,639 --> 00:12:57,680
of indicators just goes on and on and on

323
00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:01,040
about the price that has been paid for

324
00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:03,200
dividing Scotland not along class lines

325
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:06,079
not along social and economic lines but

326
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,320
they but creating this you know false

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00:13:06,079 --> 00:13:09,760
dichotomy on on the constitution and

328
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,440
that being the only thing that matters

329
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,680
in Scottish politics to the people who

330
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,519
are now uh running the the the

331
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:16,959
parliament in Edinburgh. Well, we might

332
00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:19,440
be getting on a bit, but there's still

333
00:13:16,959 --> 00:13:21,120
life in the old dogs yet. Brian Wilson,

334
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,240
thanks for joining us on this foot,

335
00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,120
Nick.

336
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:27,920
Coming up next, who's fake news? Former

337
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,920
MP Chris Williamson speaks out. Stay

338
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,920
tuned.

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00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,040
Welcome back to Sputnik. The debased

340
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,800
standards of the fake news industry sunk

341
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,120
a little lower this week with the

342
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:46,079
brewhaha over the decision by Jeremy

343
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:48,399
Corbin to publish his tax returns and

344
00:13:46,079 --> 00:13:49,839
challenge Theresa May and Philip Hammond

345
00:13:48,399 --> 00:13:51,760
to do the same.

346
00:13:49,839 --> 00:13:53,279
The waiting media reporting it turned

347
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,360
out to be either illiterate,

348
00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:57,680
innumeraate, incompetent, or

349
00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:00,160
alternatively utterly malignant. No more

350
00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:02,160
than a politically directed red pack.

351
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,880
It is either or. I'm afraid no

352
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:07,120
alternative explanation exists for yet

353
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,120
another big lie that was halfway around

354
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,839
the world before the truth had got its

355
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,399
boots on. Joining us to discuss it is

356
00:14:11,839 --> 00:14:16,560
former Labour MP for Derby North, Chris

357
00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:19,440
Williamson. Chris, thanks for coming.

358
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:22,079
Uh, without getting into all the

359
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:25,440
financial technicalities.

360
00:14:22,079 --> 00:14:29,920
This was either incompetence on a

361
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:32,160
gigantic scale by the media or a a a

362
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,760
very malignant and deliberate pack of

363
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,120
lies. Which was it in your view?

364
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,800
Well, I think it was the latter most

365
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,959
certainly. I mean, what we've seen since

366
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,800
Jeremy has been elected as the leader,

367
00:14:38,959 --> 00:14:42,959
indeed, even before he became our

368
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,959
leader, is a concerted effort to try and

369
00:14:42,959 --> 00:14:46,800
undermine and demonize him. And we've

370
00:14:44,959 --> 00:14:50,079
saw seen this in the past. It happened

371
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:53,120
to Tony Ben 30 odd years ago. Anybody

372
00:14:50,079 --> 00:14:54,800
who challenges the status quo is fair

373
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,240
game now for the media and the

374
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,920
right-wing establishment. And at the end

375
00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,800
of the day, you know, most of the media

376
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,120
outlets are owned by uh right-wing

377
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,440
establishment figures who are desperate

378
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,519
to sustain the status quo, out of which

379
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,880
they are doing incredibly well. And the

380
00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:11,040
reason why, in my view, they're trying

381
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,440
to do everything in their power to

382
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,320
undermine and demonize Jeremy Corbyn, is

383
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:19,440
that he isn't just any other old new

384
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:22,560
Labor leader. He is somebody who is

385
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:24,720
putting forward a new consensus,

386
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,880
something which will break up, rip up

387
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,040
the the status quo and actually

388
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,440
reintroduce a system in this country

389
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,760
which would actually see power devolved

390
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,600
more. See uh you know greater uh

391
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,600
equality in our country and challenge

392
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,959
the vested interests of the big

393
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,959
corporations, the oligarchs who we know

394
00:15:40,959 --> 00:15:44,560
are avoiding their taxes on an

395
00:15:42,959 --> 00:15:46,720
industrial scale. And we know that the

396
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,480
economy isn't working for ordinary

397
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:51,600
people. And that's all that Jeremy is

398
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,600
saying. His message actually is plain

399
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,560
common sense when you actually break it

400
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:59,680
down. But the media regrettably is doing

401
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:02,000
a disservice to the British uh people by

402
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:05,519
uh failing to report on the news and

403
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:08,000
seeking to uh make up stories. And this

404
00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:10,560
latest one over the tax return has

405
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,560
backfired spectacularly because they're

406
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,959
so desperate to smear and demonize

407
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,279
Jeremy at every possible turn. They

408
00:16:14,959 --> 00:16:19,519
couldn't wait to brush out a story

409
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:21,279
claiming that he'd actually uh not

410
00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:23,839
filled his tax return improperly. Turns

411
00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:25,680
out it was absolutely accurate. What is

412
00:16:23,839 --> 00:16:27,920
very interesting, however, though, is

413
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,800
the deafening silence of the media when

414
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,079
it comes to the tax returns of the

415
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,199
Conservative Prime Minister, the

416
00:16:32,079 --> 00:16:35,120
Conservative Chancellor, these

417
00:16:33,199 --> 00:16:36,800
multi-millionaires who we know are doing

418
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,360
incredibly well out of the present

419
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,440
status quo. actually the tax return of

420
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:45,279
the prime minister's husband would be

421
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:48,079
the most important to uh to see. I take

422
00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:50,720
your point uh all of your points,

423
00:16:48,079 --> 00:16:52,639
but usually there's at least an

424
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,440
argument. There's a germ of a

425
00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:57,199
possibility of a truth in one of these

426
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,759
uh bruhahas.

427
00:16:57,199 --> 00:17:02,560
In this case, if they had turned to page

428
00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:04,480
three of the tax return, the very

429
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,439
figures that they were claiming were not

430
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,959
there

431
00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:12,319
were there.

432
00:17:06,959 --> 00:17:15,520
uh it was as if a a kind of rage forced

433
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:18,000
them into publication or broadcast

434
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,799
uh before they even got to the end of

435
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,120
the tax return. Now, if you are a

436
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:25,919
private TV owner or a private newspaper

437
00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:28,960
owner, in a way, uh, you're entitled to

438
00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:31,520
do what you like, but the BBC ran with

439
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:35,039
this story and ran and ran with it, and

440
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:37,120
it has statutory obligations to balance

441
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:39,760
and fairness and so on. What can be

442
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:41,280
done? What should be done about that?

443
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,320
Well, certainly you expect better

444
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,960
standards. I mean, I'm a big supporter

445
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,160
of the BBC. They do uh a great service,

446
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,760
I think, in in the country. a lot of

447
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,760
their drama output and so on from the

448
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,520
documentaries is is very good. Where I

449
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,160
think they fall down however is in the

450
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:56,880
the news output and uh they don't

451
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:59,039
actually get that accurate uh uh very

452
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,240
often they are misleading and they take

453
00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:05,360
their lead from the national right-wing

454
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,600
uh newspapers uh and that you know sets

455
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,600
the tone of the news broad news

456
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,360
broadcasts that they are responsible for

457
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,960
and so it is very very disappointing

458
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,559
what needs to be done about it I mean I

459
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,559
think that one it does need to be

460
00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:18,000
highlighted that this is uh you know

461
00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:19,919
they're getting the these inaccuracies

462
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,000
and I think it's important that all of

463
00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:25,440
us license fee payers actually you know

464
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,440
make their feelings known about this but

465
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,679
uh you know you expect the you know the

466
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,280
governors of the BBC and indeed uh you

467
00:18:29,679 --> 00:18:32,960
know we've we we've already seen haven't

468
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,799
we uh was it the back end of last year

469
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,559
where uh there was some concern

470
00:18:34,799 --> 00:18:39,600
expressed internally within the BBC

471
00:18:36,559 --> 00:18:42,160
about Laura Coonsburg's reportage of of

472
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,600
Jeremy Corbyn and you know they do have

473
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,240
a responsibility and we do need to

474
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,919
continue to press the BBC it seems to me

475
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,760
but I think they are you know concerned

476
00:18:47,919 --> 00:18:50,960
about their their charter renewal. I

477
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,799
think that's part of the problem which

478
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,520
is driving it. There are many enemies of

479
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:56,960
the BBC within the Conservative party

480
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,000
sitting on the Tory benches. We know

481
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,360
that a lot of them would like to break

482
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,480
it up and sell it off, probably sell it

483
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,679
off to Rupert Murdoch perhaps. Um, and I

484
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,720
think in many ways they're kind of

485
00:19:03,679 --> 00:19:06,160
running scared of that, but you know,

486
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,240
they need to be brave and I think, you

487
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,600
know, whenever we get the opportunity to

488
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,640
actually, you know, call out the BBC

489
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,280
when they get it wrong, we need to be

490
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,960
doing that.

491
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,679
It's working though, isn't it? Uh,

492
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,160
regrettably, Chris, the the Labor

493
00:19:15,679 --> 00:19:21,120
standing in the opinion polls is is very

494
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:23,360
poor. Uh, as the Labor leaders

495
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:24,960
themselves acknowledge, bi-election

496
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:28,160
results

497
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:32,080
patchy, but not even remotely on course

498
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:34,720
to win the next general election. This

499
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:38,559
uh barrage, this bombardment of fake

500
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:41,360
news is it's not really, it's not at all

501
00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:43,039
actually Corbin's fault. uh whoever was

502
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:45,600
the Labour leader would be under this

503
00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:47,440
kind of bombardment and it would have

504
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,440
the same effect.

505
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,280
All Labour leaders get a tough time as

506
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,520
you know George from the uh from the

507
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,520
media. I think it is particularly

508
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,360
virulent though against Jeremy and I'm

509
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,880
not sure when you say any Labour leader

510
00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:00,000
would be suffering in the same way. I

511
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,000
don't think they would they would be

512
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,000
getting adverse publicity but not to the

513
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,679
extent that that Jeremy has sustained

514
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,160
and yes it is having an effect. There's

515
00:20:05,679 --> 00:20:11,600
no doubt about that. The problem is that

516
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:14,640
the lazy journalists in Fleet Street

517
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:16,880
actually refer to the Parliamentary

518
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,280
Labor Party as the Labor Party. That's

519
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,919
not the Labor Party. That's a tiny tiny

520
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:24,720
tiny percentage of the Labor Party. The

521
00:20:21,919 --> 00:20:28,400
Labor Party has around 600,000 members

522
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:33,120
now and incredibly infused members uh

523
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:34,799
who will be a huge force in any election

524
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:35,840
campaign. So although the polls aren't

525
00:20:34,799 --> 00:20:37,120
great at the moment, there's no doubt.

526
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,840
and I'd like them to be a lot better.

527
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:42,559
Obviously, I wouldn't write Labor off, I

528
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,559
think that will be a uh a huge uh

529
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:46,960
movement that we can bring to bear in

530
00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:49,280
any election campaign, but if we can get

531
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,039
the the party, all wings of the party to

532
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,640
unite, the grassroots membership, which

533
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:55,440
is by and large pretty united behind

534
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,760
Jeremy Corbyn's policy agenda, uh the

535
00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,000
trade unions by and large I think are on

536
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:03,440
board. Uh, and if we could just get the

537
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,840
PLP to be, you know, uh, singing from

538
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:08,080
the same hymn sheet to actually be

539
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,000
articulating the policies which Jeremy

540
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,679
is putting forward and they are common

541
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,280
sense policies. Who doesn't want the

542
00:21:11,679 --> 00:21:14,720
economy to work for ordinary people? Who

543
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,480
doesn't want to invest in the economy to

544
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,440
create secure jobs for people? who

545
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,840
doesn't want to stop global corporations

546
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,440
from externalizing good quality jobs in

547
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,360
this country by the way for which

548
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,640
they've often had government money for

549
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,400
research and development and then

550
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,000
manufacture those products overseas.

551
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,880
It's it's important to remember that at

552
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,200
the last election 15.6 million people

553
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:38,320
didn't vote and we've actually got to

554
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:40,880
reach out and inspire those people who

555
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,600
don't feel that any political party

556
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,919
speaks for them. Many millions of people

557
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,600
have felt let down, betrayed by all

558
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:49,360
political parties and that's because New

559
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,120
Labor became too close to the

560
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,559
Conservatives and people didn't see the

561
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,159
difference. We do have an opportunity

562
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:55,679
through the new media, through social

563
00:21:54,159 --> 00:21:58,240
media, through programs like this, of

564
00:21:55,679 --> 00:22:00,480
course, to actually, you know, bypass

565
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,919
the the mainstream media and get out to

566
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,280
uh and speak to to people.

567
00:22:01,919 --> 00:22:05,840
Well, that's what Trump did, of course.

568
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,280
He just, you know, he's speaking

569
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,440
directly to the people in his own way.

570
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,559
He's not even using his um official.

571
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,919
I mean, I'm no fan of Trump, but you're

572
00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:14,480
absolutely right. I think we could look

573
00:22:11,919 --> 00:22:16,880
at that and the whole weight of the

574
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,039
establishment ranged against him and he

575
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,080
was able to bypass and you know that and

576
00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:21,440
I think we could do

577
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,360
that's right what you said. I mean it's

578
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,280
under Jeremy Corbin that the Labor Party

579
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:25,679
became the largest Labor party of

580
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,039
Europe.

581
00:22:25,679 --> 00:22:28,640
We've got more members in the Labor

582
00:22:27,039 --> 00:22:31,360
Party than the Conservative Party, the

583
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,320
Liberal Democrats, UK, the Green Party,

584
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:36,640
the SMP, the uh Democratic Unionist

585
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,480
Party, every other single political

586
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,600
party in this country. Lump them all

587
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,600
together. They've got less members than

588
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,559
the Labor Party. That's that's an

589
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:47,039
incredible story

590
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:50,480
that needs to be felt uh on the ground

591
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:53,120
more than it is uh now. You see, with a

592
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,840
membership that size and you and I have

593
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,360
fought elections, we know uh what a

594
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,600
picture when you see a picture of

595
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,159
activists, we know that it's been taken

596
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,559
from an angle and to show the maximum

597
00:23:02,159 --> 00:23:07,760
number of people and so on. There needs

598
00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:11,440
to be thousands of people on the streets

599
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:13,360
of bi-election cities and towns and

600
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,520
hundreds of thousand on the streets in

601
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:18,640
the in the general election. You

602
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:21,039
confident that this membership is a real

603
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,880
thing and not just a paper tiger?

604
00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:26,320
I am. I am. And of course, we've got to

605
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,159
um those of us that have been around a

606
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:32,080
long time uh facilitate um the ability

607
00:23:30,159 --> 00:23:35,760
of newer members to to get involved

608
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:37,520
because regrettably there is um um if

609
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,919
you like a counterrevolution going on

610
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,880
inside the Labour party and uh you know

611
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:45,280
some of the um establishment figures uh

612
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,559
in constituencies are very suspicious of

613
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,400
the new members and have tried to keep

614
00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:50,960
them at arms length and and we've got to

615
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,400
find ways of bringing people in and

616
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,919
giving them opportun ities to

617
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,960
participate and I think we can do that.

618
00:23:53,919 --> 00:23:58,799
I really do. I mean, you know, even

619
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,400
before this massive surge in party

620
00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:02,480
members. I mean, some some of the people

621
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,559
on the right of the party, you know, I

622
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,640
think are looking back uh through roast

623
00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:08,320
tinted spectacles because they imply

624
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,919
that somehow in the old days, well, all

625
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,159
the old members were were active. Well,

626
00:24:09,919 --> 00:24:14,159
they weren't. It was always a minority

627
00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:16,320
of people, even from when I first joined

628
00:24:14,159 --> 00:24:19,440
the Labour Party all those years ago,

629
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,240
that actually were activists. But uh you

630
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,120
know if we can get five or 10% of the

631
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,400
600,000 members being active on the

632
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,600
street that is an incredibly strong

633
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,000
force but I believe that we'll get more

634
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,840
than that.

635
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,200
Chris Williamson you're you're a great

636
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,600
talker. I don't know why you're an

637
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,440
exMPP. You should be a current one.

638
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,510
Thanks very much for joining us on the

639
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,159
sportnik

640
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:41,840
[Music]

641
00:24:40,159 --> 00:24:43,840
and now it's your turn to tell us what

642
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,840
you think through the portals of social

643
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,320
media. What's rattling guy

644
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,360
Corbin? Two very interesting contrasting

645
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,919
tweets from Jennis Barnes saying worst

646
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:56,080
of all are the so-called Labor MPs the

647
00:24:53,919 --> 00:24:59,200
Blairites who prefer Theresa the

648
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:02,320
appeaser over Jeremy Corbin and Jesse

649
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:04,960
Carl Corbin and UK labor they hate the

650
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,520
Brits they want mass immigration nobody

651
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:10,480
will vote for these traitors.

652
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,960
Uh well of course I profoundly disagree

653
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:16,799
with that but uh I guess there's no time

654
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:19,039
to fully articulate it. I agree with the

655
00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:22,080
the point that Chris made that no one

656
00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:23,600
can write off anybody in these turbulent

657
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,960
political times.

658
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,919
Well, that's all the time we have for

659
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,919
the tweets today,

660
00:25:25,919 --> 00:25:28,320
which alas means that's the end of the

661
00:25:27,919 --> 00:25:30,000
show,

662
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,080
but you can stay in touch with us on

663
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,679
social media, Twitter and Instagram,

664
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,000
RT_Sputnik,

665
00:25:33,679 --> 00:25:37,520
or Facebook. Sputnik on Russia Today.

666
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,440
It's goodbye from me, Gayatri,

667
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,400
and from me, George Galloway. It's been

668
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:45,400
marvelous.

669
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,400
Heat. Heat.

670
00:25:52,430 --> 00:25:55,489
[Music]