Okay, thank you. I need
Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me, George Galloway,
and me, Gayatri.
Will she won't she? Will she won't she
join the dance? The turtle song in Alice
in Wonderland provides a perfect
introduction to the dilemma facing the
sturgeon. Or is it the salmon? As
Britain heads for the Brexit,
Scotland's first minister Nicolas
Sturgeon believes that the greater
support for remaining in the EU in
Scotland than in Wales and England
provides a trigger for a new referendum
on Scottish independence. Or does she?
Former first minister Alex Salman seems
a bit more enthusiastic about Indere too
and some say is pushing his successor
down a road which could either lead to
the breakup of Britain or the breakup of
the Scottish National Party or it could
just be a hard cop soft cop routine.
Either way, it is a high-risisk
strategy. er rests upon the belief that
the Scots will be so in love with the EU
from Belgium to Bulgaria, Romania to
Rome that they will sever their ties
with their rather closer
English-speaking neighbors and customers
in England and Wales. Will she? Won't
she? Let's ask the right honorable Brian
Wilson, a former Labour cabinet
minister, journalist, and broadcaster.
Brian, thanks for coming back on the
sputnick. Let's deal with the will she
won't she. Uh, does she want to? Is
Salmon pushing her? What's your take on
that?
Well, Salmon's certainly pushing her.
There's no no doubt about that.
I don't think anybody knows. I'm not
sure she knows herself, but it's a it's
a problem entirely of her own making, a
dilemma of her own making because it's
all based on this contrivance really
that um Brexit was such a cataclysmic
event and is, you know, in terms of what
we already know about what the outcome
is going to be that this dramatically
changes everything and therefore there
must be a another independence
referendum. There's no logic in in in
that position apart from anything else.
You know, I mean, I'm a fairly obvious
example. why I voted to remain in the
EU. But the idea of being counted upon
as as one of those whose vote justifies
calling an independence referendum is
patent nonsense. And also I mean there
was a very sub although clearly more
people in Scotland voted to remain than
to leave there was a very substantial
minority and and the polling shows about
30% of SNP supporters voted to leave. So
the idea that they are automatically so
indignant about being out the EU that
they want an independence referendum.
they might want it for other reasons,
but they certainly don't want it for
that reason. So the whole thing it was
it's been a very sort of labored
contrivance to get into this position
and important figures in the Scottish
nationalist movement like Jim Siller's
former colleague of ours who became a
grande of Scottish nationalism. He's
made it clear he'll not be voting for
independence if it means going into the
EU as an independent Scotland. So the
crisscrossing of all these things must
make it very problematic as to what the
outcome of an India refu would be.
I think it is very problematic and I I
think you know Jim Sers is still a a big
beast and he's a you know he's he's a
powerful debater and and him putting
that case will be a significant factor.
But I think even before you get to what
would happen in a referendum, I think
really in exposing what they're up to,
it's important to recognize, you know,
the dishonesty really of the case
they're putting forward. It is a
contrivance. So there's no, you know,
what would you be voting on in a
referendum? You we clearly we don't know
what the outcome of Brexit is going to
be on a thousand different fronts, but
equally we don't know what independence
is is going to to look like and we don't
know what the EU is going to look like.
So to plunge a Scotland into another
referendum four years after the one that
was supposed to be the once in a
generation referendum on the on the
basis of a complete set of unknowns is
you know that is not uh it's not a
rational response and I also think that
no matter who's in government in the UK
be it Tory or Labor the fact is that the
government of the United Kingdom is
about to enter the most significant
diplomat atic negotiations since the
Second World War I with huge
implications for jobs and living
standards and everything else. The idea
they should be they should be asked to
do that while on the one hand to be
conducting these negotiations while in
the back door they're having to fight a
secessionist referendum. And I just
think that is unreasonable. It defies
common sense. And I think on that point
that the Scottish people almost across
the board apart from the real zealots
for for for nationalism would recognize
that that is unreasonable which is why
the polls are showing a 2 to1 majority
against having another referendum. That
wouldn't be the first time uh though I
know you don't like to go there uh that
that happened uh with a government in
London entangled with uh uh rather
important business uh visav Europe but a
backdoor Scottish nationalist stab in
the back uh effectively but that poses
uh at least two alternative
possibilities for the British state.
either as I favor the British government
itself saying after Brexit there will be
a second Scottish referendum and uh
incidentally we'll set the question uh
or a British government determination
declared now that once in a generation
is not uh four years and there will be
no Scottish second referendum. Which is
your uh your favorite option of those
two? Well, it's it's slightly in
between. I mean, I I am absolutely clear
that if Sturgeon forces the the question
that the UK government should say, "No,
you're not having a referendum just
now." And it and and obviously there
would have to be a facing down of the
great squeals of indignation and, you
know, grievance and this is an outrage
and and all all the rest of it. But I
think that the ground should be laid for
why you're saying it. And it's not it's
not the imperial power saying saying we
will defy the will of the Scottish
people. And so far as we know the will
of the Scottish people is that there
should not be another referendum. What
it is saying is the argument I've just
made. It is utterly unreasonable
irrational to have these two pro two
things going on at the one time Brexit
negotiations and a Scottish referendum.
As Jim Siller said actually you know
that who knows these negotiations might
go a lot better than anyone thinks. And
on the other hand who knows what the EU
is going to look like at at that time.
So it might be a different set of of
circumstances. I mean, what I've always
said is if the people of Scotland want
independence, they should have
independence. I don't, you know, I don't
I don't want it. I'll vote against it.
I'll campaign against it. But if that is
the view, then so be it. And if there is
a dominant view in Scotland in in a few
years time, there should be another
referendum, then so be it. But what I'm
not prepared to see, what I'll argue
very strongly against now is being
manipulated into a second referendum
which neither has an intellectual basis
nor has the support of the majority of
the population.
See, I wonder as you say, apart from the
zealots, is the matter of um
independence and and the EU really the
biggest priority of the people of
Scotland?
We tend to be persuaded to think in
terms of black and white. I mean, I I
you know, I voted to stay in the EU, but
I'm not with no illusions that it's some
sort of perfect democratic entity. You
know, I mean, I I mean, I do mean EU was
set up to facilitate the free movement
of capital, not the free movement of
labor. And and you know, a lot of good
things have been added onto it. Some of
them been beneficial to Scotland. But if
you spoke to fishermen for instance, you
spoke to a lot of people who have lost
their jobs because of the a the free
movement of capital then maybe they
wouldn't think it was such a great idea.
So I think in many people's minds it's a
balance. You know it's not an absolute
you know but the biggest thing in their
lives is to stay in the in the EU. I
mean I think there's a much more complex
view of that and so let's see how it
rolls. Let's see how Brexit is going to
to to develop and then maybe maybe form
an opinion. But the idea that all
Scotland is up in arms because the UK as
a whole has voted to come out of a
European Union is a is a fantasy.
You'd think that though if you followed
uh the media. I sometimes think it's
only they and me uh that think the way
we both think on this. The political
class, the media class appears
overwhelmingly
uh wedded now, including some surprising
uh converts to uh to the cause of of
separatism. Uh is this because of the
very substantial decline in the party we
once both served, the Scottish Labor
Party?
I think I've said this before and you
know I mean the biggest threat to a
to the constitution the biggest threat
of independence doesn't come from the
SNP. It comes from the weakness of labor
and the biggest threat over the next 10
years say will be if the perception is
there's not going to be another Labor
government. And a lot of people who you
know we would know and and respect would
finally shrug our shoulders and say well
maybe we have to look for for for
something else. I mean I I have no doubt
about that. And I think in the in the
Labor party's internal affairs, it's
something that there is an obligation to
take account of, you know, but there's
there are very very big stakes at here
here and at state here and they're not
just the the the obvious ones, but um
you know, but but at the moment the
position is in spite of that is that it
it appears the majority because mainly
because of the economic arguments.
There's all there's a whole range of
arguments about, you know, our ties with
the rest of the UK. There's a very
obvious argument that what madness is it
that we we're going to come out of a
union which is worth four more time four
times more to us in exports than the one
that we're supposed to be in. Exactly.
you know, I mean, so it it there's all
of these things and of course the the
economic argument which again is
confirmed just within the last couple of
days by um the the S&P's own sort of
think tank on the economy that the the
lies that were told the last time about
the you know the likely oil price the
whole construction of an econom economic
argument in the white paper has now
shown to have been entirely false. You
know, these are the reasons no matter
how you vote, how people vote in
Scotland, these arguments are are the
ones, you know, that are are
well, Scots are not called cann for
nothing and facts or chills that want to
ding uh and it takes money to buy mints
and all that. Uh at the end of the day
uh if you can't persuade Scottish people
that they will be at least as well off
out of the United Kingdom than they are
in it.
But the possibility exists that they
might be very considerably worse off. I
don't see how the SMP could win that
referendum. It's one of the reasons why
I want it to go ahead. Well, we could
win it because we live in irrational
political times. And if you can brush
these argument aside, you you only need
51% after all. You know, final
rather than Exactly. So you you might
have 49% of rational people listening to
the arguments and 51% were not really
not interested in the arguments because
this is what they've been convinced is
is is the way to go. But, you know, I I
believe if there was a referendum just
now that because the economic case is so
bad that that the vote would be to to
remain within the United Kingdom. But
what I don't want, George, I mean, you
know, we're all pushing on a bit and for
another 18 months of our lives to be
devoted to this nonsense, you know,
while on every measurement Scottish
education is declining, the Scottish
economy
really is has nowhere to go. 20% of jobs
in the financial se services sector have
gone since since 2014. I mean the list
of indicators just goes on and on and on
about the price that has been paid for
dividing Scotland not along class lines
not along social and economic lines but
they but creating this you know false
dichotomy on on the constitution and
that being the only thing that matters
in Scottish politics to the people who
are now uh running the the the
parliament in Edinburgh. Well, we might
be getting on a bit, but there's still
life in the old dogs yet. Brian Wilson,
thanks for joining us on this foot,
Nick.
Coming up next, who's fake news? Former
MP Chris Williamson speaks out. Stay
tuned.
Welcome back to Sputnik. The debased
standards of the fake news industry sunk
a little lower this week with the
brewhaha over the decision by Jeremy
Corbin to publish his tax returns and
challenge Theresa May and Philip Hammond
to do the same.
The waiting media reporting it turned
out to be either illiterate,
innumeraate, incompetent, or
alternatively utterly malignant. No more
than a politically directed red pack.
It is either or. I'm afraid no
alternative explanation exists for yet
another big lie that was halfway around
the world before the truth had got its
boots on. Joining us to discuss it is
former Labour MP for Derby North, Chris
Williamson. Chris, thanks for coming.
Uh, without getting into all the
financial technicalities.
This was either incompetence on a
gigantic scale by the media or a a a
very malignant and deliberate pack of
lies. Which was it in your view?
Well, I think it was the latter most
certainly. I mean, what we've seen since
Jeremy has been elected as the leader,
indeed, even before he became our
leader, is a concerted effort to try and
undermine and demonize him. And we've
saw seen this in the past. It happened
to Tony Ben 30 odd years ago. Anybody
who challenges the status quo is fair
game now for the media and the
right-wing establishment. And at the end
of the day, you know, most of the media
outlets are owned by uh right-wing
establishment figures who are desperate
to sustain the status quo, out of which
they are doing incredibly well. And the
reason why, in my view, they're trying
to do everything in their power to
undermine and demonize Jeremy Corbyn, is
that he isn't just any other old new
Labor leader. He is somebody who is
putting forward a new consensus,
something which will break up, rip up
the the status quo and actually
reintroduce a system in this country
which would actually see power devolved
more. See uh you know greater uh
equality in our country and challenge
the vested interests of the big
corporations, the oligarchs who we know
are avoiding their taxes on an
industrial scale. And we know that the
economy isn't working for ordinary
people. And that's all that Jeremy is
saying. His message actually is plain
common sense when you actually break it
down. But the media regrettably is doing
a disservice to the British uh people by
uh failing to report on the news and
seeking to uh make up stories. And this
latest one over the tax return has
backfired spectacularly because they're
so desperate to smear and demonize
Jeremy at every possible turn. They
couldn't wait to brush out a story
claiming that he'd actually uh not
filled his tax return improperly. Turns
out it was absolutely accurate. What is
very interesting, however, though, is
the deafening silence of the media when
it comes to the tax returns of the
Conservative Prime Minister, the
Conservative Chancellor, these
multi-millionaires who we know are doing
incredibly well out of the present
status quo. actually the tax return of
the prime minister's husband would be
the most important to uh to see. I take
your point uh all of your points,
but usually there's at least an
argument. There's a germ of a
possibility of a truth in one of these
uh bruhahas.
In this case, if they had turned to page
three of the tax return, the very
figures that they were claiming were not
there
were there.
uh it was as if a a kind of rage forced
them into publication or broadcast
uh before they even got to the end of
the tax return. Now, if you are a
private TV owner or a private newspaper
owner, in a way, uh, you're entitled to
do what you like, but the BBC ran with
this story and ran and ran with it, and
it has statutory obligations to balance
and fairness and so on. What can be
done? What should be done about that?
Well, certainly you expect better
standards. I mean, I'm a big supporter
of the BBC. They do uh a great service,
I think, in in the country. a lot of
their drama output and so on from the
documentaries is is very good. Where I
think they fall down however is in the
the news output and uh they don't
actually get that accurate uh uh very
often they are misleading and they take
their lead from the national right-wing
uh newspapers uh and that you know sets
the tone of the news broad news
broadcasts that they are responsible for
and so it is very very disappointing
what needs to be done about it I mean I
think that one it does need to be
highlighted that this is uh you know
they're getting the these inaccuracies
and I think it's important that all of
us license fee payers actually you know
make their feelings known about this but
uh you know you expect the you know the
governors of the BBC and indeed uh you
know we've we we've already seen haven't
we uh was it the back end of last year
where uh there was some concern
expressed internally within the BBC
about Laura Coonsburg's reportage of of
Jeremy Corbyn and you know they do have
a responsibility and we do need to
continue to press the BBC it seems to me
but I think they are you know concerned
about their their charter renewal. I
think that's part of the problem which
is driving it. There are many enemies of
the BBC within the Conservative party
sitting on the Tory benches. We know
that a lot of them would like to break
it up and sell it off, probably sell it
off to Rupert Murdoch perhaps. Um, and I
think in many ways they're kind of
running scared of that, but you know,
they need to be brave and I think, you
know, whenever we get the opportunity to
actually, you know, call out the BBC
when they get it wrong, we need to be
doing that.
It's working though, isn't it? Uh,
regrettably, Chris, the the Labor
standing in the opinion polls is is very
poor. Uh, as the Labor leaders
themselves acknowledge, bi-election
results
patchy, but not even remotely on course
to win the next general election. This
uh barrage, this bombardment of fake
news is it's not really, it's not at all
actually Corbin's fault. uh whoever was
the Labour leader would be under this
kind of bombardment and it would have
the same effect.
All Labour leaders get a tough time as
you know George from the uh from the
media. I think it is particularly
virulent though against Jeremy and I'm
not sure when you say any Labour leader
would be suffering in the same way. I
don't think they would they would be
getting adverse publicity but not to the
extent that that Jeremy has sustained
and yes it is having an effect. There's
no doubt about that. The problem is that
the lazy journalists in Fleet Street
actually refer to the Parliamentary
Labor Party as the Labor Party. That's
not the Labor Party. That's a tiny tiny
tiny percentage of the Labor Party. The
Labor Party has around 600,000 members
now and incredibly infused members uh
who will be a huge force in any election
campaign. So although the polls aren't
great at the moment, there's no doubt.
and I'd like them to be a lot better.
Obviously, I wouldn't write Labor off, I
think that will be a uh a huge uh
movement that we can bring to bear in
any election campaign, but if we can get
the the party, all wings of the party to
unite, the grassroots membership, which
is by and large pretty united behind
Jeremy Corbyn's policy agenda, uh the
trade unions by and large I think are on
board. Uh, and if we could just get the
PLP to be, you know, uh, singing from
the same hymn sheet to actually be
articulating the policies which Jeremy
is putting forward and they are common
sense policies. Who doesn't want the
economy to work for ordinary people? Who
doesn't want to invest in the economy to
create secure jobs for people? who
doesn't want to stop global corporations
from externalizing good quality jobs in
this country by the way for which
they've often had government money for
research and development and then
manufacture those products overseas.
It's it's important to remember that at
the last election 15.6 million people
didn't vote and we've actually got to
reach out and inspire those people who
don't feel that any political party
speaks for them. Many millions of people
have felt let down, betrayed by all
political parties and that's because New
Labor became too close to the
Conservatives and people didn't see the
difference. We do have an opportunity
through the new media, through social
media, through programs like this, of
course, to actually, you know, bypass
the the mainstream media and get out to
uh and speak to to people.
Well, that's what Trump did, of course.
He just, you know, he's speaking
directly to the people in his own way.
He's not even using his um official.
I mean, I'm no fan of Trump, but you're
absolutely right. I think we could look
at that and the whole weight of the
establishment ranged against him and he
was able to bypass and you know that and
I think we could do
that's right what you said. I mean it's
under Jeremy Corbin that the Labor Party
became the largest Labor party of
Europe.
We've got more members in the Labor
Party than the Conservative Party, the
Liberal Democrats, UK, the Green Party,
the SMP, the uh Democratic Unionist
Party, every other single political
party in this country. Lump them all
together. They've got less members than
the Labor Party. That's that's an
incredible story
that needs to be felt uh on the ground
more than it is uh now. You see, with a
membership that size and you and I have
fought elections, we know uh what a
picture when you see a picture of
activists, we know that it's been taken
from an angle and to show the maximum
number of people and so on. There needs
to be thousands of people on the streets
of bi-election cities and towns and
hundreds of thousand on the streets in
the in the general election. You
confident that this membership is a real
thing and not just a paper tiger?
I am. I am. And of course, we've got to
um those of us that have been around a
long time uh facilitate um the ability
of newer members to to get involved
because regrettably there is um um if
you like a counterrevolution going on
inside the Labour party and uh you know
some of the um establishment figures uh
in constituencies are very suspicious of
the new members and have tried to keep
them at arms length and and we've got to
find ways of bringing people in and
giving them opportun ities to
participate and I think we can do that.
I really do. I mean, you know, even
before this massive surge in party
members. I mean, some some of the people
on the right of the party, you know, I
think are looking back uh through roast
tinted spectacles because they imply
that somehow in the old days, well, all
the old members were were active. Well,
they weren't. It was always a minority
of people, even from when I first joined
the Labour Party all those years ago,
that actually were activists. But uh you
know if we can get five or 10% of the
600,000 members being active on the
street that is an incredibly strong
force but I believe that we'll get more
than that.
Chris Williamson you're you're a great
talker. I don't know why you're an
exMPP. You should be a current one.
Thanks very much for joining us on the
sportnik
[Music]
and now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media. What's rattling guy
Corbin? Two very interesting contrasting
tweets from Jennis Barnes saying worst
of all are the so-called Labor MPs the
Blairites who prefer Theresa the
appeaser over Jeremy Corbin and Jesse
Carl Corbin and UK labor they hate the
Brits they want mass immigration nobody
will vote for these traitors.
Uh well of course I profoundly disagree
with that but uh I guess there's no time
to fully articulate it. I agree with the
the point that Chris made that no one
can write off anybody in these turbulent
political times.
Well, that's all the time we have for
the tweets today,
which alas means that's the end of the
show,
but you can stay in touch with us on
social media, Twitter and Instagram,
RT_Sputnik,
or Facebook. Sputnik on Russia Today.
It's goodbye from me, Gayatri,
and from me, George Galloway. It's been
marvelous.
Heat. Heat.
[Music]